tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13083972.post3880572642009541066..comments2023-09-29T06:00:09.242-05:00Comments on Julie Pippert: Using My Words: Trepidation: The Hump Day Hmm for July 25, 2007Julie Pipperthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03169574697104642479noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13083972.post-57805541145749822642007-07-30T12:15:00.000-05:002007-07-30T12:15:00.000-05:00Sorry I missed this one....is there a schedule som...Sorry I missed this one....is there a schedule somewhere of topics? What's up for Wednesday?Catherinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07316677018586769316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13083972.post-48783939678745626892007-07-29T00:18:00.000-05:002007-07-29T00:18:00.000-05:00I believe that the arguments about so-called "poli...I believe that the arguments about so-called "political correctness" are a collective red-herring.<BR/><BR/>It is all nonsense aimed at distraction.Gunfighterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05762432006297768871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13083972.post-50673919724424296032007-07-26T12:30:00.000-05:002007-07-26T12:30:00.000-05:00Oh how I wish I had not missed this one. PC has d...Oh how I wish I had not missed this one. <BR/><BR/>PC has done nothing more than substitue labels and perpetuate our obsessive need to classify people. Words that are truly offensive like the N-word and the F-word have never been acceptable and have always been hate speech. <BR/><BR/>If we changed the way we thought than the need for policing speech would not be necessary.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07089700542958652031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13083972.post-62296189617612888942007-07-26T09:49:00.000-05:002007-07-26T09:49:00.000-05:00Atypical, oh so nice to see your name! In your hea...Atypical, oh so nice to see your name! In your head counts. That makes me feel warm and fuzzy to know that.<BR/><BR/>***<BR/><BR/>Snoskred, I agree that we need to write what we know. And I also thought I knew where to go but found myself stymied.<BR/><BR/>***<BR/><BR/>Queen, yes, I think PC falls in the same ball park as respect and courtesy. I believe the original intent was good, but then, as has come up in this discussion, it has somehow morphed into its own problem---which is what I have tried to address.<BR/><BR/>And I won't call you crazy for that idea. Not even behind your back. :)<BR/><BR/>I think that you have your own gifts and I'm glad for your kind of voice. <BR/><BR/>I was thinking this morning about complimentary versus competitive as motivator for achieving goals (don't ask---it's the way the brain goes LOL). I think in the blogosphere we have a nice array of complimentary---well, you get to this in your post.<BR/><BR/>I'm so sorry you had that crazy experience.<BR/><BR/>But I'm glad you knwo it's not you adn hasn't shut you down.<BR/><BR/>Thanks. :)<BR/><BR/>***<BR/><BR/>Kyla, I am so glad you came on and put this up. I think it is such an important idea and point. Well you know my long-winded reply already so I'll just say I'm so glad you decided to weigh in.<BR/><BR/>***<BR/><BR/>I am blown away by this awesome discussion. It's so valuable I think.<BR/><BR/>I also have to say how much I respect people remaining Named as they express their views, even though I have the anonymous and logged out options.<BR/><BR/>Big props from me to you, all.Julie Pipperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03169574697104642479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13083972.post-84527587381723984042007-07-26T08:38:00.000-05:002007-07-26T08:38:00.000-05:00Originally, I was too afraid of offending someone ...Originally, I was too afraid of offending someone to post this comment. I emailed it to Julie instead. Given the subject matter, I think that is a statement in itself. But I've gather up the nerve to post it, so here we go.<BR/> <BR/>I do think, as humans, we are all responsible to think before we speak and try and be kind to one another in our words. I think PC takes it a bit too far at times, though.<BR/> <BR/>The example that comes to mind is the recent line of thinking that children with autism should not be called "autistic". To do so means you are defining the child only by the disorder and devaluing him as a human, or so they say. We are to say "X has autism." Never "X is autistic." The same goes for children with delays. I should not say "KayTar is delayed." or I am defining her only by those delays...but if I say "KayTar has delays." evidently is it acceptable. Now ask me which I say. <BR/> <BR/>Both. Because they mean the same thing to me. One word does not change her situation or make me feel any differently about her. If you said, "Oh, KayTar is delayed?" I would say, "Yes, she is." Not, "NO! She is not delayed. She HAS delays, do not attempt to define her by them!" <BR/> <BR/>What I'm saying is, this sort of "correctness" is a bit too far, at least for me. There are certain words I definitely choose not to say, because they are hurtful. I feel that is my responsibility as a thoughtful human to be kind with my words, but I don't like having to worry about every phrasing that comes out of my mouth, especially when there is no-ill meaning behind it or as in the above example, I would use it to describe my own children. I don't like the thought that something innocent I say could be misconstrued as intolerant or insensitive, because it was not quite PC enough. <BR/> <BR/>So there is my book-long comment for you. I hope I did not offend anyone. ;)Kylahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03311014761113076785noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13083972.post-84045057463164227952007-07-26T07:53:00.000-05:002007-07-26T07:53:00.000-05:00Julie, This is a very thought-provoking post...no...Julie,<BR/> This is a very thought-provoking post...not that I expected any less of you! :)<BR/><BR/>A part of me feels that PC falls under the umbrella of manners. You know, your mother told you..if you don't have anything nice to say..don't say anything at all. Yet I feel that is has grown into something that in many ways cripples people from being able to truly express themselves. <BR/><BR/>Call me crazy, (but not to my face..hee-hee) but I have to believe that the majority of people are good....and when they express their opinions on things it is just that...an opinion..not a judgement of an entire race, socioeconomic level, religion, or gender. Are there people out there who thrive on using hurtful words and hate? OF COURSE...but why must the many suffer for the few?<BR/><BR/>As for keeping things light, I tend to do it out of a feeling of inferiority. Don't get me wrong...I feel I am an intelligent person...yet when I read eloquently written posts, I wonder if mine would be able to meaure up. Also, I did post about something that I felt strongly about and was absolutely blasted by a lunatic. A lunatic that, in essence, threatened to send over a pack of lunatics to continue the battle. Even knowing that this person was crazy...seeing...in print..that someone thought I was a racist....hurt my feelings. Obviously I know that I am not....but it bothered me that my writing was being taken that way. (EVEN though a black man that reads my blog on a regular basis took no offense...but I digress!) So if I'm honest...maybe it's a comfort thing...keeping it light. Yet..sometimes I feel that sharing my fears and inadequacies (SP?)as a parent take just as much courage.<BR/><BR/>I do respect and admire you SO much for your candor and bravery in addressing controversial issues!Queen of the Mayhemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10317309061471274358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13083972.post-47940682395510469782007-07-26T01:59:00.000-05:002007-07-26T01:59:00.000-05:00I struggled with the topic too - when you suggeste...I struggled with the topic too - when you suggested it originally I was all yeah I know what I want to write about, but by the time I sat down to write it most of what I wanted to say had vanished, thanks to the Desperate Housewives phenomenon. ;)<BR/><BR/>But also because like Christine said, I don't know so much of the history or the politics of PC, I just know how it's affected me in life. Christine - I think it is really important for us to write what we *know*.. that is more important than anything else. ;)<BR/><BR/>It's two lessons for me - write it when I think it, don't wait, even if I don't post it for a few days.. ;) and write what I know, and be happy with that instead of trying to over-reach. ;)<BR/><BR/>Snoskred<BR/>http://www.snoskred.org/Snoskredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12670406702782244306noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13083972.post-2836028086169048622007-07-25T23:27:00.000-05:002007-07-25T23:27:00.000-05:00k, I didn't even finish reading this because I hav...k, I didn't even finish reading this because I have to go paint some more, but I wanted to let you know I'm here. :)<BR/><BR/>BTW, my definition of PC would be about the same as yours. I had wanted to write on this hummer too (I have written so many hump day posts in my head!), but I have barely been on the computer lately.<BR/><BR/>Hopefully I will finish the painting before falling asleep, and I will have some free time tomorrow!<BR/><BR/>-tatypicalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09332618564238120593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13083972.post-36827218539754279002007-07-25T23:05:00.000-05:002007-07-25T23:05:00.000-05:00LM, I leave it open.I too have avoided a number of...LM, I leave it open.<BR/><BR/>I too have avoided a number of examples that would probably put this discussion (from me) in better context...out of sensitivity. And yeah, a little personal hide concern.<BR/><BR/>***<BR/><BR/>Flutter, if it comes to you, door is open...<BR/><BR/>***<BR/><BR/>LOL Emily.<BR/><BR/>Speaking of family...<BR/><BR/>I have recently come to distinguish sensitivity from selfishness and oversensitivity.<BR/><BR/>Sometimes I think PC crosses a line, and this is something Slouching Mom touches on in her comment.<BR/><BR/>It can be really hard to discuss issues such as politics or health because we can easily go so overboard about semantics and language that the conversation ceases. That's one of my concerns.<BR/><BR/>Language should be handled with care, but not so much so that we cease using it out of fear of its power. OR create a meaningless lingo such as "voluntary taxation."<BR/><BR/>I'll make sure to throw in one of your topics so you can get back on board. :)<BR/><BR/>***<BR/><BR/>Aliki, same raincheck deal open to you...<BR/><BR/>***<BR/><BR/>Christine, no slamming of self! :)<BR/><BR/>I will check your comment at Chani's.<BR/><BR/>***<BR/><BR/>SM, as noted above, yes, you have hit on an aspect of this.<BR/><BR/>I mean, arguing the meaning of "is" is really outside of enough, IMO.<BR/><BR/>I do try to be sensitive about some obvious things.<BR/><BR/>I will never call children "real," as in, "Are those your real children?" <BR/><BR/>"No they are my pretend ones; I go to Rent-A-Kid over on 4th and Center once a month to get my fix, have an excuse to see kiddo movies."<BR/><BR/>Or "normal." I nearly hate that word, no strike that I hate the misuse of that word, especially within the medical community when what's really meant is, "common" or "I hear that a lot but I don't know what it is."<BR/><BR/>There are a lot of labels.<BR/><BR/>The problem is that sometimes it hits a point that people's sense of the ridiculous kicks in and instead of taking the sensitivity requested seriously, it becomes a joke, such as, "Today I'm feeling slim challenged and I fell off my chocoholic wagon."<BR/><BR/>I full on refer to myself as infertile. You can't look at me and see that. It affects my lifestyle, though. It's not all of me, either.<BR/><BR/>There used to be a lot of discussion---because infertility does so overtake your life---about how to call it: did we "have" infertility, were we "suffering from" it or were we simply "infertile?"<BR/><BR/>I voted for "absorbingly sufferingly manifestation of infertility" but was vetoed due to wordiness and overly complex. ;)<BR/><BR/>So I stick with simple.<BR/><BR/>This hits a point some friends and I have discussed time and again: where do your rights end and mine begin?<BR/><BR/>If you are the only person who will not accept "is diabetic," am I obligated to always remember, "Oh yes, SueQ prefers has, not is, must say it that way..." and recall each individual's personal preferences, and remain contrite if I forget or miss? What is your obligation to let some things roll off, because as your friend, you know I know you are more than your disease. Which obligation is greater?Julie Pipperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03169574697104642479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13083972.post-8461431830219289972007-07-25T22:47:00.000-05:002007-07-25T22:47:00.000-05:00M-L and Roz...yes, you guys are understanding how ...M-L and Roz...yes, you guys are understanding how I mean this. What began as a potentially positive reform movement has instead morphed into a weapon against nonconforming thought of the prevailing political theory, and moreover, has (as you correctly understood Roz) come to mask a deeper ugliness that hasn't been eradicated despite language changes.<BR/><BR/>M-L, as you said, I am a little overwhelmed too and balky a bit as well, LOL. It's why other opinions were so valuable to me---trying to frame this in my mind.<BR/><BR/>But yes, also as you said, needed to be defined a bit better. I am sure people thought i meant "to hell with boundaries...say what you think" which isn't it at all. I'm talking the politics of language.<BR/><BR/>I do have both linguistics and politics in my mind, especially as that hits the bullying thing you mentioned, Mary-Lue. Excellent point.<BR/><BR/>If I had to summarize my baseline point, I believe you did it really well for me with:<BR/><BR/>"I suspect it is a circular thing, politics today feeding into the polarization of opinion and the true divergence of points of view feeding into the fierce atmosphere of the political arena.<BR/><BR/>When you take that harsh atmosphere and throw in a helping of PC'ness, well, it will put a damper on meaningful conversation I think."<BR/><BR/>And there, Roz, we get to your good points and clear understanding (which, BTW, was very coherent but I also knew you were on a work deadline). You have nailed my concern about the sinister underlayer the pleasant PC lingo hides, as well as the less tolerance for veering fro the party line of PC lingo.<BR/><BR/>I mean, who wants to advocate not being PC---it's meant to be GOOD and do GOOD THINGS, right? Arguing it is what, akin to saying, "Hey let's form a hunting party and go shoot Bambi."<BR/><BR/>My thing is that I am saying it is not a perfectly good movement.<BR/><BR/>So yes, you two nailed it.<BR/><BR/>Thanks. :)<BR/><BR/>Okay on to more...Julie Pipperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03169574697104642479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13083972.post-9929127500389684902007-07-25T20:57:00.000-05:002007-07-25T20:57:00.000-05:00I agree with you 100%, Julie. Why, for example, m...I agree with you 100%, Julie. Why, for example, must we say "height-challenged" instead of "short"? What is so wrong with "short"?<BR/><BR/>Here's another example that has bothered me in the past. I know someone with diabetes who is offended when someone refers to her as "diabetic." She would prefer to be referred to as "someone with diabetes," because she believes that the latter suggests that she has lots of attributes of which diabetes is only one. But it seems to me that any reasonable person is not going to infer that she is only her diabetes simply because she's referred to as diabetic.<BR/><BR/>It's just semantics! It drives me batty!Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05602868040771218507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13083972.post-60629905304584124182007-07-25T18:20:00.000-05:002007-07-25T18:20:00.000-05:00because i am neurotic and should have written my o...because i am neurotic and should have written my own post. . .<BR/><BR/>i also fear losing friends/readers for being TOO light and fluffy.<BR/><BR/>though those are good qualities in a souffléChristinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04662448292809451387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13083972.post-57326422519816228782007-07-25T18:14:00.000-05:002007-07-25T18:14:00.000-05:00Julie, I think I get where you're coming from.Both...Julie, I think I get where you're coming from.<BR/><BR/>Both of us are living in a place where there's this stress on certain social rules. Expectations. You don't talk about some things in public. I think that has created an ugliness beneath all the prettiness and sweet tea. One where awful things are said about people. Where hate and prejudice linger.<BR/><BR/>I think that's kind of the same thing you're saying about PC, right? That, while good intentioned, it's led to a more sinister kind of racism/prejudice because there's this social expectation of what you're supposed to say. So, the awful things we say about another are hidden in the words. You have to listen for inflection to get the real meaning.<BR/><BR/>It was created to help us be a more sensitive, respectful society. But in many ways it's made us less so. It's just not an overt thing.<BR/><BR/>Am I close?<BR/><BR/>I didn't blog on this because of time and I couldn't get a coherent post put together.kalirozhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10413769558136831135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13083972.post-34016158397214066122007-07-25T17:31:00.000-05:002007-07-25T17:31:00.000-05:00thanks, "not julie" i actually never thought of t...thanks, "not julie" i actually never thought of that. <BR/><BR/>duh.<BR/><BR/>i left a comment over at chani's place today that i think applies here as well. not really about my feelings on the pc topic, but why i am still avoiding the topic.Christinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04662448292809451387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13083972.post-57399490114610309642007-07-25T17:25:00.000-05:002007-07-25T17:25:00.000-05:00Christine, just to remind, anonymous comments are ...Christine, just to remind, anonymous comments are allowed here, too. Maybe that will make people feel safer to say something? <BR/><BR/>(This is not Julie)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13083972.post-72358454467341077772007-07-25T17:08:00.000-05:002007-07-25T17:08:00.000-05:00julie-- i so love this topic, but like others i fe...julie-- i so love this topic, but like others i feel unable to articulate myself in any way that doesn't make me sound like an idiot. so i'll fall back on my very light <BR/><BR/>i'm also a chicken.<BR/><BR/>working on it. . .Christinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04662448292809451387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13083972.post-92094017667936317922007-07-25T15:20:00.000-05:002007-07-25T15:20:00.000-05:00I will be lame and plead understanding from you th...I will be lame and plead understanding from you that I don't get to this topic...not because of lack of interest. Where I work this is an important topic, and one I've thought about and dealt with. I wish I could put together an articualate post on this topic, I really do. Will you accept a raincheck?Aliki2006https://www.blogger.com/profile/15763865834765963343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13083972.post-10708823059405544772007-07-25T15:09:00.000-05:002007-07-25T15:09:00.000-05:00Cecilieaux, can you clarify b/c I am confused by y...Cecilieaux, can you clarify b/c I am confused by your comment when you wrote, "...complaining about PC is one more way we in white-bread America can assure ourselves that (a) we're not racist (yeah, right!) and (b) we have a God-given right to belittle anyone we like..."<BR/><BR/>Thanks!<BR/><BR/>I will try to get back for replies later...Julie Pipperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03169574697104642479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13083972.post-47808897200346136662007-07-25T14:44:00.000-05:002007-07-25T14:44:00.000-05:00Julie,I did not post on the topic because I am try...Julie,<BR/><BR/>I did not post on the topic because I am trying very hard to stay on focus with my blog, and the only issue my family doesn't seem to have is a PC one!<BR/><BR/>I tend to be in favor of voluntary political correctness -- that is, thinking before we speak about whether there is a way to say something that will avoid hurting other people. I am not easily offended; in fact, people have tried and failed. So, I do not get hurt all that easily, but I think that others can be. If I can find a way to speak my mind without being hurtful, I will.<BR/><BR/>It is about using language to its utmost potential. Finding the words that can express something without hurting a decent person is worth the effort. What I don't like is the kind of PC you talk about, where language becomes completely devoid of meaning. Language is strong, powerful, and should be handled with care. To throw words about because they sound good is disrespectful to all hearing. So, say what you mean in the most effective way, which is usually also the kindest way, but do not say what you don't mean just because you think others want to hear it.<BR/><BR/>That said, there are certain people who deserve to be hurt by language, but I am related to most of them :)<BR/><BR/>And, I agree with Cecilieaux on the moral or fat-free thing.<BR/><BR/>I love this topic and am glad you are doing it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13083972.post-72465291275353129272007-07-25T14:00:00.000-05:002007-07-25T14:00:00.000-05:00I think the hoo-hah about "political correctness" ...I think the hoo-hah about "political correctness" is bull. In essence, complaining about PC is one more way we in white-bread America can assure ourselves that (a) we're not racist (yeah, right!) and (b) we have a God-given right to belittle anyone we like (note to us: there is no god and no such right). That said, I will defend the legal right to be incorrect, or rude or a bleedin' Nazi -- but legal ain't moral or fat-free.Cecilio Moraleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05283375962527765787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13083972.post-23393557192917392152007-07-25T13:13:00.000-05:002007-07-25T13:13:00.000-05:00My post is finally up. The actual title is "decons...My post is finally up. The actual title is "deconstructing the impossible". I saved it too soon. :) The post explains my addlebrained reasoning today. :) <BR/><BR/>http://thailandgal.blogspot.com/2007/07/day-before-yesterday-i-received-private.htmlthailandchanihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171731740204067889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13083972.post-73271041416796194332007-07-25T12:16:00.000-05:002007-07-25T12:16:00.000-05:00I think it is good to define what you mean by poli...I think it is good to define what you mean by political correctness. I may have mentioned it here before, in fact, I'm sure I did, but I had a professor who drilled into my wee brain that whenever you are discussing anything, be sure to define your terms. <BR/><BR/>Part of my feeling a little overwhelmed when I looked at the Wikipedia discussion on PC'ness was because there was so much disagreement about what it meant. Do you take a linguistics approach? Do you take a political approach? <BR/><BR/>Plus, I think a whole other discussion could take place on something else that I think is going on in our culture today which is a kind of bullying. You kind of addressed it in your amendment to this post when you write about <I>how</I> you talk about things. I don't think it is about PC'ness but about the general lack of tolerance for other people's points of view.<BR/><BR/>I suspect it is a circular thing, politics today feeding into the polarization of opinion and the true divergence of points of view feeding into the fierce atmosphere of the political arena.<BR/><BR/>When you take that harsh atmosphere and throw in a helping of PC'ness, well, it will put a damper on meaningful conversation I think.<BR/><BR/>Finally, (for now, at least) I don't think you communicated in any way any haranguing. :)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10270726693980247861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13083972.post-42685901341638491162007-07-25T12:05:00.000-05:002007-07-25T12:05:00.000-05:00I have input, too, which I may have already writte...I have input, too, which I may have already written to you. I'll check and see if that's the case.. and put it here in the comments section. <BR/><BR/><BR/>Peace, <BR/><BR/>~Chanithailandchanihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171731740204067889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13083972.post-91120460597588673662007-07-25T11:16:00.000-05:002007-07-25T11:16:00.000-05:00I have a lot to say on this, but I am uncharacteri...I have a lot to say on this, but I am uncharacteristically at a loss for words when it comes to putting it in a way that makes sense....flutterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11828689769747130419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13083972.post-8322296804833950512007-07-25T10:24:00.000-05:002007-07-25T10:24:00.000-05:00I started to write a post last week while I was on...I started to write a post last week while I was on vacation that fits in with this topic pretty well. The only problem - I'm not sure I can publish it because it's about something that happened at work. Damn. it.<BR/><BR/>I may, however, write it & see if HBM would put it in her basement. If I do that, I'll send you an email with the link but I doubt it will be this week. Too much going on. You know, same old excuse.<BR/><BR/>But I'm really hoping that this topic will come up again next week - or at least something related to it - because I have some thoughts I'd like to get out, even if I can't publish what I originally wrote.Lawyer Mamahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06819273107327846943noreply@blogger.com