When it comes to male-female friendship, marriage, and complications, sex can be the least of it...

Oh the Joys wrote a blog post the other day called, "I don't hang out with your husband," which addressed opposite sex friendship after marriage. I felt it was a pretty straightforward account of the things you need to keep in mind about opposite sex friendship and marriage. I think most of us have had some experience of this going right, and going wrong, and have probably formed some opinions. In the case of the comments to that post, most people seemed to agree with OTJ, including me.

Then two bloggers, Meno and Bob, wrote eloquent posts that elaborated on their point of view.

I kept commenting to each discussion, and then decided I had enough to say to warrant my own post. Then I felt like it made sense to include my husband's voice equally.

So I recorded a conversation between us about this, for your reading pleasure.

The conversation is exact, conversational, and so hopefully you can follow it. It also unfolds interestingly. We began with my husband thinkign he had a different point of view then me, me believing we agreed, and ended with us both learning a little something.


Our response and conversation about male and female friendships, friendship and marriage...

(from dictation of a conversation)

Jon:

Having read Oh The Joys, Meno and Bob's posts (or having had them read to me) and the comments, I have to say I fall most in line with K, Oh The Joys' husband. I admit and get that Julie falls more in line with Oh The Joys, and I understand that.

Julie:

Why do you fall in line with K? What does that mean?

Jon:

I don't think there should be a line drawn in the sand of whom one---based on gender, or race or any other distinction one can draw---can start a friendship with.

Julie:

But do you hear me saying, have I ever said you can't be friends with a woman, or specified that your only friends can be men?

Jon:

I don't know that it's been directly said but I've gotten the impression you're uncomfortable with it and don't prefer it.

Julie:

Based on...? Have I been discouraging, gotten in the way, how did you get this impression?

Jon:

Based on cues I've picked up on in conversation, I can't think of any specific examples. It of course all started with the very beginning and what happened there.

Julie:

You're going to have share with the class. What happened?

Jon:

It all started with the, umm, situation...

Julie:

Should we put slut? Whore? Bitch? Or will female work?

Jon:

(laughing uproariously) I don't think you can say those on a family blog.

Julie:

I did check "no profanity." Hmm I guess we'll see.

Anyway, go ahead...let's establish up front a short synopsis here. We met when we were both dating other people. And then we met again when we were both in a sort of something or another of some sort with other people. And I asked you out. You hesitated because of this other guy, who you sort of shared a social group with and while I thought of him as "nice guy to do things with..."---stop that you know I mean go places---you had a different take on it and you claim so did he.

Which is sort of my point, to some degree, how easy it is to mistake feelings in a male-female friendship.

At that time, we both had a lot of opposite sex friendships, didn't we? And some of those had gone awry, sort of in this manner.

We could say our relationship had a complicated start. I'd like to attribute that to the youthful blunders of the early 20s but I'm not so sure. So go ahead adn explain your point of view on that deal.

Jon:

Umm well I think because of the situation we were in at the time, and I can't speak for your friends who were totally messed up in their own ways, but most of my friends at that time were female. They apparently had different perspectives on our relationship that I did.

Julie:

What was your perspective and theirs?

Jon:

Well apparently some of them had romantic interests that they had not expressed and as such got bent out of shape.

Julie:

Would you say they sabotaged or tried to sabotage our relationship, either through actions or an utter lack of respect for the relationship?

Jon:

Umm it would seem that way. Nothing was done in front of me...

Julie:

OH MY GOD. You still allege innocence like almost 20 years later. Were you on drugs or something? How could you NOT SEE what was going on? How about that invitation to dinner...how about that weekend by the lake...

Jon:

Maybe I was watching the last vestiges of all my college friendships being washed away and it was a really difficult process, to the point that now I have utterly no contact with any of the friends I had in seven years of college.

Julie:

That sucks. For both of us. My friends weren't any better. I admit that. I had some genuinely nice people who kept it largely to themselves, but the bottom line is that nobody was happy for us when we got together. And eventually all the friendships faded away. I think mainly because they couldn't support our relationship. But as I was saying, I had someone I'd been friends with since freshman year---my roommate!---who tried to seduce you after we were definitely a couple.

Jon:

(nods) And your other friend too (name omitted for privacy reasons). I'm not sure how agreeing to go play pool one night at a bar was accepting some invitation to cheat on you. I guess before we were actually married it could be argued I was available, but I don't think married versus committed should be distinguished like that.

Julie:

Yeah but just shooting pool isn't agreeing that you think of yourself as available to cheat.

Jon:

I agree.

Julie:

But some people seem to have a lot of trouble with the line. And because our relationship bore so many strains due to opposite sex friendships, I got really protective about who we befriended and how. So you understand?

Jon:

Yeah.

Julie:

But you still feel my preferences are a little over the top? And you feel vastly different.

Jon:

I just don't challenge them. I don't have time these days anyway.

Julie:

Have you ever wanted to? Has there been a friendship you've passed out of fear of my reaction or more obviously hurting my feelings?

Jon:

I don't know. I can't think of anyone.

Julie:

Did you feel at all burned or shy after all we dealt with from those opposite sex friendships?

Jon:

Sure.

Julie:

Do you think that's why you don't challenge my preference? No, wait, you probably feel pretty similarly to me. But you let it be my preference, so it falls back to me, and my feelings and my responsibility.

Jon:

I'll admit if you were regularly---in our current state---heading off to go have coffee with a guy friend or talking on the phone with a guy friend frequently I wouldn't like it much, but that's more the time issue again. We don't have time to regularly go off together and chat and have coffee ourselves. I imagine if I told you I was going out to have drinks with (woman he knows, name omitted for privacy) for a drink after work you'd have a heart attack. I don't think it would have anything do with me having drinks with her, or a woman, more that you want me home, and I know in large part because you've had it with the kids by then and if I went gallivanting around town you wouldn't be very happy about it.

Julie:

I want you to have a social life, and I'd be pretty happy if you had more of one than you do now, and I think if possible I'm more unhappy about your lack of social life than you are, but at the end of the day, you have to work, a lot, and you have a long commute, and then you want your free time with the family, which leaves little to no time for friends, so the leftover free time we either go on a date or meet a couples friend for a night out. Which kind of cuts out your time for much making of friends at all.

So would you agree it's not really, probably, in most cases---even in ours where we bear a history of you definitely proving to be honorable and worthy of my trust and probably then some, even though we dealt with friends interfering or trying to in our relationship---so in most cases, it's probably not so much about the sex, or worry about sexual infidelity as jealousy about wishing you had that free time with your spouse?

Jon:

I think so.

Julie:

So the jealousy is really more an envy, a wish for that freedom, that togetherness, in a time of not enough time, not enough together time. Not so much a distrust necessarily.

Jon:

Yeah.

Julie:

But there is distrust, and there is a worry that your actions might be perceived wrong by the partner, so maybe this causes general you to make a different decision about making friends of the opposite sex than you once did.

Okay (neighbor dad) and I often walk or chat to and from school, he's come over and hung out while the kids played, and (other guy we know) and (other male friend), we've chatted and everything.

I'm not hardcore into the idea that I can't be friends with them, you have to be, and I have to be friends with the wives. I do have more women friends and hang out more with them. But I'm glad for you to be friends with my women friends, and you don't seem to have a problem knowing, for example, that I sat over at (friend's house) and ate dinner with (her husband) while she wasn't there and the kids ripped up their house the other week. And I can say I'd be perfectly okay with the reverse, you hanging out there with her.

Jon:

Yeah but I don't feel like, well...I know them, and I don't feel threatened by them. I guess your point, well, it's good, there is some importance to knowing the person. I get your point about involving or meeting or just knowing in some way the friend.

Julie:

There isn't an exclusivity...so my point is that it's not you have to befriend HIM and I have to befriend HER and neither the twain shall meet...

Jon:

I don't think it has to be husband-husband and wife-wife...I suppose there is some sort of safety net in couples being friends with couples...

Julie:

I don't know, seems like that's where it happens a lot of the time.

Jon:

Well and that's the thing, isn't it, it's not the friendship and excluding the opposite sex doesn't preclude infidelity.

Julie:

I agree.

Jon:

I don't think you should have to exclude single people. I mean if you liked to chat with a guy, maybe from book club or something, I don't see anything wrong with that.

Julie:

I don't either. And that's not my point. I don't think it needs to be exclusive him-him and her-her. I do think it has to include the marriage, I think it's easier to respect something that has a face, that you see. I also think it means you draw a line, like a sharing line. I do think you need to approach friendship a little differently after you get married, committed whatever, to some degree. I think you have to respect that, respect your partner. You get my point that it makes sense that eventually---whether it's a dad from school or guy from book club, single or married or whatever---it makes good sense to have open lines of communication, each be available to the spouse, known in some way...at least you meet these people and know them, not just know about them. You think that's reasonable?

Jon:

Yeah.

Julie:

And so what you were saying here, that you feel comfortable with those guys I call friends, that a big part of that is that you know them, and you know their wives, and so forth.

Jon:

Yes.

Julie:

So actually, we're pretty much on the same page here, and it's not really just my preferences, it's pretty much a joint agreement.

Jon:

Yeah, I mean I can't speak for you, but from what you've said here, and over time, yeah, I think so.

I do agree with Bob that friendship isn't at the heart of infidelity. If it's going to happen it's because of problems in the marriage, not the friendship. If some man or woman is going to chase after a spouse and take advantage of a weak spot, well, that's not just that person, that's people having more problems than that. In general, if you're going to wander off and pick up a relationship, there's something structurally wrong with your marriage to begin with. It's not a friendship gone awry, it's a marriage gone awry.

Julie:

Oh I completely agree about that. Friendship doesn't cause infidelity, problems do. There is nothing simple about it, and nothing easy black and white.

I do feel strongly, though, that when your marriage is having trouble, you need to dedicate your resources there, to figuring that out, and not necessarily put it out into friendship, that's especially when those opposite sex friendships carry more risk or have the possibility of creating a problem or trouble, if nothing else, due to anger that your time is there with that woman, for example, instead of home with me, but that's again, the problem, not the friendship.

So really, in the end, it's not really that complicated. My point of view, no our point of view, is just to keep the marriage front, and that's our job, and know in some way our spouse's friends.

Is that about right?

Jon:

Yeah.

Julie:

Anything else, anything else from the discussion that you think is relevant or important, you know, to address?

Jon:

No.

(read: quit making me talk, I want to go do...)

When it's completely misinterpreted by the masses you can come back and I'll take it up more then.

Julie:

Okay, thanks for playing.

Copyright 2008 Julie Pippert
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